The BIPOC/ACCUTE First Person Interviews series is adapted from the CBC First Person series. It captures the stories and perspectives of BIPOC members of ACCUTE from different parts of Canada at different stages of their teaching, research, or graduate student careers. The interviews are presented in dialogue style to enable us to present participants’ stories and experiences in their own voices. We hope to encourage other BIPOC members of ACCUTE and future members to join the conversations. Please reach out to info.accute@gmail.com if you are are interested in joining the First Person BIPOC/ACCUTE series. We hope you enjoy reading our members’ stories and we look forward to hearing from you.  — Chinelo Ezenwa, Member-at-large, BIPOC Caucus

Chinelo Ezenwa: I’m going to start by introducing myself. My name is Chinelo. I am the EDIAD Graduate Academic Advisor at Western University. Other than advisory work, teaching and research in postcolonial and decolonial studies, I really love movies. I love to read but haven’t had the chance to read for pleasure in a while. You are our very first participant in the “Fun BIPOC Interviews” series. Nice to meet you again and thank you for joining us today via Zoom.  

Sarah Olutola: My name is Dr. Sarah Olutola, and I am an Assistant Professor of Writing at Lakehead University’s English Department. Broadly speaking, I work in Black, African, and African diasporic Anglophone literature and pop culture, but I’m specifically looking at North American Children’s Literature, which I write.  

CE: From your perspective, what does it mean to be “BIPOC” and “BIPOC” ACCUTE? Is “BIPOC” an identity you would normally assume — why or why not? 

 SO: There are so many different ways to think about these questions, and this is part of the reason why I like pop cultures. Through pop culture, you can get an understanding of how people are feeling about things and thinking about larger issues. I don’t know if you know about the Afro Beats artist Tyla; she recently won a Grammy for the song “Water,” which is very catchy. I love that song. But it’s so interesting because when she started to really explode and that song started to explode, there was discourse online about African Americans calling her Black.  Through the American lens, they were having discussions about colourism, and the ways in which Blackness is defined by these Eurocentric standards. But Tyla herself actually said, I’m not Black, which made a lot of people upset. She said, I’m coloured (she is from South Africa). This got me thinking about the ways in which names and labels embrace. They are so contextually situated in different places. And they are always historically, socially, regionally, politically situated and inflected.  

I think that in North America, we created this term BIPOC which stands for Black, Indigenous, and People of Colour. First of all, why Black and Indigenous? Why point those two out? I think it’s an understanding that within a North American capitalist society in the global North, Black and Indigenous people receive much of the burden of racism and of these racist systems. It’s a way to acknowledge that, while also trying to gain community and allyship among other people of colour. There are times when I wonder about whether the term is useful because understanding ourselves as not white, I think, still centralizes whiteness. At the same time, there are a lot of us who aren’t white and are in these different communities that don’t get along and actually exploit each other. These communities can be racist against each other, right? Also, I think, the word “BIPOC” already gives a sense of the kinds of hierarchies and the differential relationships that we have with each other. So it can force other people, people who are Black, Indigenous, and people who consider themselves as people of colour, to think very critically about what their relationships are with other people of colour. I think it’s still a useful term, but it’s very politically situated. 

CE: Thank you, Sarah. I think my next question is a continuation of some of the things you already addressed. What are your biggest concerns about academia and English studies as they relate to “BIPOC”? 

SO: My biggest concerns actually have more to do with white institutions, and the idea of oversimplifying those complexities that I was talking about. If Tyla (the artist) were a PhD student hired at university, I’m sure she would be considered Black by the faculty that hired her. But she doesn’t even consider herself Black. And what Blackness is is different for people in different parts of Africa, right? So, I think my worry is whether these active institutions can move forward with some of their diversity initiatives in a way that understands these complexities, that understands the political tensions, and that acknowledges them. And whether or not people within the institutions are even ready to acknowledge the anti-Black racism within Asian communities, or within the different divisions within Asian communities, like Southeast Asia and South Asia, East Asian, those kinds of complexities, instead of putting everybody in a box. I think that complexity needs to be understood if it’s going to make any sense, or at least if it’s going to have a positive effect within academic institutions. 

 CE: Going back to your example of how a university might hire a “Black” faculty member who does not identify as Black, what would be ACCUTE’s biggest contribution in this regard, in terms of helping to understand some of the complexities you highlighted within “BIPOC” communities?  

SO: Yeah, I think definitely having more courses that speak to “BIPOC” experiences and that can really break down those complexities that I talked about would definitely help. That would require hiring more “BIPOC” faculty members and having more “BIPOC” people in higher positions. But who’s being fostered and encouraged to enter into these positions, or even to enter into that educational space to be able to get their Master’s and PhD? These have to do with larger political, sociopolitical, societal institutions and hierarchies. So, how does ACCUTE want to step outside of just academia? Because it does require stepping outside of academia and taking a look at all of that, all of those people out there who are not white, who aren’t really given the kinds of privileges that allow them to enter into this field. How can we enter into these communities and foster that kind of love for education and foster the opportunities that will allow people to eventually be hired in these positions?  

And then how can ACCUTE advocate for its professors? You know, I wrote a piece for The Conversation about what universities need to do to protect their racialized faculty. And we did a Lakehead webinar on the series. I wrote the piece because I was so intrigued by something that happened to a professor of Nigerian origin named Uju Anya, who critiqued Queen Elizabeth. Uju Anya talked about British colonialism in Nigeria, and she was reprimanded, first of all by Jeff Bezos, which I thought was just so strange, but also by her university, Carnegie Mellon. And the students had to create this petition to try to protect her and protect her job. But I think we’ve seen situations like that in Canada where you know Black professors or Black people within academia who may not be protected when they speak truth to power. What happens if a “BIPOC” professor spoke out in favour of Palestine? What would that mean? We’ve seen that already in terms of what’s happened to even politicians, right? My MPP, Sarah Jama is a black woman, part of the NDP. She was kicked out of the NDP, which is supposed to be very liberal. So, what can the institutions do to protect their racialized workers and employees and faculty members so that these faculty members can do what we’re supposed to do, which is to foster real change within academia? ACCUTE could think about what it means to have a university as a creative space and a space for a social change. 

 CE: I also think that universities, supported by associations like ACCUTE, are the right spaces to train for having potentially divisive conversations, mindful of other viewpoints and histories. Universities are microcosms of the “real world,” so understanding how to deal with each other respectfully could be a big part of university education. 

I will now ask one of our “fun” questions. If you could write a book, another book, or direct a movie, what would be the title? 

 SO: I thought that question was so interesting because I can’t imagine myself directing anything. I don’t even know what goes into directing, but it’s kind of like, what would I want to see on screen or in print? I love Black kid’s literature (Black kidlit) that takes African experiences across the diaspora. The kind of stuff that Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie writes is largely, I think, for an adult audience. But she does write about Nigerians, not just in Nigeria, but what it means to be a part of the Nigerian diaspora, moving across different places and the kinds of experiences that we have. And as somebody who was born in Canada, you know, and raised in Canada, I would love these kinds of books, but more of it in kidlit (children’s literature). I would have loved to have Black kidlit middle grade books. When I was growing up it was largely white books available. I would love to see something for younger audiences, like picture books, chapter books, middle grade books, because I think that’s an important age where kids need to see themselves in the books they read.  

CE: I never really thought about the question of children’s literature from that perspective. There’s a community centre here in London where I live. It’s called WEAN Community Centre and I think it has the only or oldest Black library in Canada. And it’s so interesting that it has the kinds of books that you mentioned. I’ve been saying that whenever I travel to Nigeria, I’m going to get them so many books that they would need to build a new library. Because we have lovely books in the continent, you know, and I guess I took them for granted.  

One final question – would you like to share any words of wisdom for “BIPOC” ACCUTE members, grad students, and emerging scholars? 

SO: It’s tough. I mean, I’ve heard so many different stories, you know, some negative, some really negative stories about the kind of things that people have had to go through. And I still think that sometimes there’s this constant state of feeling like you have to prove yourself because people don’t take you seriously. I’m trying to take a step back from this whole idea of ‘you have to achieve’ to ask myself: achieve what? I think the most important thing is your health and wellness. And I’m seeing some people forced to leave academia for their own health, but that doesn’t mean that their work, the work that they’re doing, is over. They’re just doing their work in a different way. So, I think everybody has to ask themselves what kind of work they want to do. How do they want to intervene in society? And how best can they do that in a way that they can maintain their health? Physical health, emotional health, spiritual health, mental health? People are taking on too much because they feel like they need to, otherwise they won’t get tenure or get renewed. And I think that the pressure is so much more for “BIPOC” peoples and faculty in academia having to try and navigate classrooms where you’re the only non-white person in the classroom and you have to talk about racism, right? That can take a huge toll, whether it’s acknowledged or not. 

My advice is to always ask yourself what is this all for? What is the end goal? And if you decide that academia isn’t the place where you can do your best work, I think it’s OK to step away from it. But if you feel like academia is the best place to do your best work, that this is the space where you can really intervene in society the way you want to, then find community. Find people who you can talk to. And that’s what I really liked about our ACCUTE BIPOC Caucus Meeting. It helps you to realize that you are not alone. Yeah, that’s a powerful feeling.

Dr. Sarah Olutola is the Assistant Professor of Writing at Lakehead University Orillia Campus. 

Photo credit: Melanie Gillis